Yeah, but doesn’t that hurt you when an iyashikei character you love and support (@SaiMoe for example) is ranked next to “traditionnal” moé characters like, I don’t know, awfully attractive loli and horrible walking boobs. You see what I mean ?

No, I think that’s fine, since it shows that these types of characters are almost as popular as the more typical types of moe and that there is an audience out there that also appreciate iyashikei characters. And, anyway, I don’t think traditional moe is the worst thing ever. At its worst and most contrived, I just see it as a consequence of anime makers trying to cash in on its popularity (a fact of life) and at its not-so-worst, I actually rather like it (I consider myself an off-and-on tsundere fan).

Overall, I think we’re just basically talking about semantics, which is what this discussion was inevitably going to degrade to (much like most conversations about moe). Moe is basically a personal thing, but part of the point of this article is that the thing I’m referring to as “natural moe” tends to incite stronger feelings for me personally than the more standard type of moe that does well in competitions like SaiMoe. As far as SaiMoe is concerned, I realize it’s a popularity contest, but moe is a populist phenomenon, so I don’t think it’s a terrible way to evaluate popular moe in a coarse, blurry kinda way.

@Akira
Yeah, I think that’s what I’m trying to get at, but when you start trying to define something as a feeling, it’s really hard to do since as you say, it’s in the eye of the beholder. I did give one example of “natural moe” outside the iyashikei genre (Yumi from Marimite), but choosing examples from iyashikei anime was quite deliberate since I was trying to make the point that this type of moe is more common with anime that are more subtle and subdued than the typical moe anime. So would Baccano! and Kannagi count as natural moe? It might to you, but I’m not sure it would to me (again, with moe being a personal thing). Baccano! is definitely different from standard moe, but it doesn’t incite the “natural moe” feeling from me, while Kannagi probably isn’t quite as natural as other examples. Then again, who makes that call about what counts as natural and what counts as contrived. When it comes to moe, there’s no standard, because it’s all about personal feelings and reactions.

@gaguri
Yeah, I think that’s it. If your reaction is “so moe I’m gonna die” at a loli with catgirl ears wearing a pair of bloomers with a sad look on her face, we’re probably not talking about natural moe. But there’s nothing wrong with the more artificial moe. C.C. is moe, but C.C. is also a very capable and tactically-minded person. It’s only when moe is taken too far by anime makers, and it has an obviously blatant and manufactured feeling that I grow indifferent.

To a certain degree, I do believe that moe should be a romantic (or sexual) attraction. Yet, ironically, your list (and mine) of characters that we dub “naturally moe” elicit no sort of attraction response from me. In fact, I would be rather appaled to find ero doujin for any of those characters listed above… I’m pretty sure you would be too.

It’s simply different. Watching those characters walk around and do what they do elicits warm, fuzzy feelings… (Well, maybe not for the female cast of Baccano; there are strong feelings of admiration there.) Perhaps that’s what natural moe is; although I think your argument would be enhanced if you could point out a few examples of naturally moe characters outside of the iyashikei genre.

Anyone who says Murasaki isn’t moe is clearly wrong. >_>;;; That, I think, is the prime example. Also, I have no idea why I think this, but I’d argue that some of the characters from Kannagi are pretty naturally moe. Nagi, for one. Tsugumi especially. Zange… not so much.

…you really should get some form of IM. I really wish there were a better way for the two of us to continue these conversations, as they’re extremely interesting. (And entertaining.)

Your natural moé is something only present in seinen and jousei, ie when the readers are mature enough to develop real feelings for them and not just hormones induced emotions (=D). Then it is true that some really deeply constructed characters can have both : Kokonoe Rin is a true loli who possesses a certain moé level but also is a character you care for, maybe there, there is your “natural moé”.

Personnaly, I feel THE moé when thinking about these characters you list and especially Akari and Yuno but let’s take Rika from H&C. Well, I have no real romantic or sexual feelings for her but I do have feelings. Is it moé ? I don’t think so, moé is something that makes you all excited (with all the meaning the word excited has). Your selection of characters do not induce excitation but calm, soft happiness, relaxing stability, etc …

I think it’s right to differentiate these two feelings and maybe add that some characters can have both iyashikei (your natural moé) and (traditionnal and “manufactured”) moé power.

The sole point I disagree with your theory is the word you use. Like you said, defining moé is an hard task to accomplish.

PS : excuse me for my awful english, but I think me being French doesn’t help. =D

Oh and SaiMoe is a popularity contest, not the world international scale to define moé, I’m sure you’re aware of that.

I guess we have to go back to the very question about whether these characters are moe. And I’d say, yes, they are, just not in the typical, mainstream way. Their inclusion and (relative) success in SaiMoe kinda indicates that I’m not the only one who finds them moe. I guess this comes back to the problem with defining moe, it’s different things to different people.

Read this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono_no_aware and this http://www.conservapedia.com/Iyashikei

Hope you’ll appreciate my quite incisive comment.